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Plexus

The Two Issue I've noticed with GameDesign

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Hello.
First off, It's not a complain, and I won't be whining.
As a game developer I know how hard it can be to balance a game, especial when it involve that many player and stats scaling over such scaling (Early game a few strength is a lot, and late game, you gain it buy thousand) and when dealing with code you didn't make yourself.

  1. The first Issue I've noticed, and It's pretty well knew among player and Dev (as I read left and right on the forums) is the Dex Scaling.
  • Actually Dexterity Increase Critical Rate, Reduce Cool-Downs and Increase Normal attack damage.
  • Most damage Increase in the game is caused by STR (with directly affect the skill Attack), well, at first sight, because the second most important damage increase in late game is the "Multiplier of Critical Strike". which, in late game can easily add a 15 or 25 damage multiplier to your already existing damage.
  • Vit and Int both have scaling for Multiplier critical strike for each of their skill, while Dex doesn't have, but the Dex don't have cooldown, however, The damage gap between Dex& other class will just be bigger and bigger since CD reduction cap at 100% (I mean, having 180% won't change anything). By the time a Int or Vit character use 1 spell and the CD end, the dex character still struggling to deal enougt damage (and I'm not even talking about ultimate skills)
  • Another issue caused by "no cooldown" is the BrainDead gameplay created for dex Character, while they were designed for fast gameplay, you just end up spamming your I-Frame AOE ability key until all enemies are dead... which is honestly not fun. even more when you have to do it for 2min on the same enemy because your damage are 25 time lower than other chars.
  • I think the best way to fix this issue is :
  • Cap CD reduction to 75-90 % prevent infinite I-Frame
  • Make Dex Scale both Magical and physical Critical damage after 3k dex, at about 1/3 of other chars (this would need testing to fine-tune the value)
  • This will both prevent the Brain-Dead-op-but-slow-gameplay of dex char and make they funnier to play overall without nerfing them to trash-tier

 

      2. The second Issue I've noticed is the weird scaling once you reach mean (same for bonus)

  • You actually need gear Way over what you can obtain by that stage, For example, Full Sardes Devil I item is not enough to be efficient in M6, and M6 gear isn't even enough to DO M6
  • Same happen with bonus stage, having full Ancient Fire Fortress gear isn't enough to deal with Bonus 1
  • This actually force the player to get carry by stronger player from their guild, or to make them grind for hours and hours lower stage to obtain better gears they can't obtain by their own means
  • This issue seam to be caused by your average NPC, Boss is Myth are actually easier to kill than other NPC, which is wrong you basically dealing with Boss-tier Health on every enemy
  • I son't know if this is a bug or voluntary design, but most people I've spoke with disliked this and find this really unbalanced

OF course, my way of seeing things is not absolute and not perfect, but I believe those 2 issue to be important and Really degrade the overall Lunia experience create frustration for players

Thanks for reading.

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Hiii dear. 

I wanna understand more, are u saying that Dex doesnt have damage? (If u are talking about Asuka, i agree, because in this game she needs a Update) Did u already see Iris /Arien? ok.

(Ryan and Tia, need a update for some Myths, not all)

I dont think changes Dex classes is a solution! You would change all game DNA. Some chars need a UPDATE, NOT CHANGE CLASSES

Check this post and comment: 

About gear, of course with Ancient Fire u can do Bonus 1! U need to know how to play too, its never will be easier for new players. 

   - Go to 7-9, try to get some finger, necklace and earring IV to give u more status.

Thanks dear.

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4 hours ago, Plexus said:

Hello.
First off, It's not a complain, and I won't be whining.
As a game developer I know how hard it can be to balance a game, especial when it involve that many player and stats scaling over such scaling (Early game a few strength is a lot, and late game, you gain it buy thousand) and when dealing with code you didn't make yourself.

  1. The first Issue I've noticed, and It's pretty well knew among player and Dev (as I read left and right on the forums) is the Dex Scaling.
  • Actually Dexterity Increase Critical Rate, Reduce Cool-Downs and Increase Normal attack damage.
  • Most damage Increase in the game is caused by STR (with directly affect the skill Attack), well, at first sight, because the second most important damage increase in late game is the "Multiplier of Critical Strike". which, in late game can easily add a 15 or 25 damage multiplier to your already existing damage.
  • Vit and Int both have scaling for Multiplier critical strike for each of their skill, while Dex doesn't have, but the Dex don't have cooldown, however, The damage gap between Dex& other class will just be bigger and bigger since CD reduction cap at 100% (I mean, having 180% won't change anything). By the time a Int or Vit character use 1 spell and the CD end, the dex character still struggling to deal enougt damage (and I'm not even talking about ultimate skills)
  • Another issue caused by "no cooldown" is the BrainDead gameplay created for dex Character, while they were designed for fast gameplay, you just end up spamming your I-Frame AOE ability key until all enemies are dead... which is honestly not fun. even more when you have to do it for 2min on the same enemy because your damage are 25 time lower than other chars.
  • I think the best way to fix this issue is :
  • Cap CD reduction to 75-90 % prevent infinite I-Frame
  • Make Dex Scale both Magical and physical Critical damage after 3k dex, at about 1/3 of other chars (this would need testing to fine-tune the value)
  • This will both prevent the Brain-Dead-op-but-slow-gameplay of dex char and make they funnier to play overall without nerfing them to trash-tier

 

      2. The second Issue I've noticed is the weird scaling once you reach mean (same for bonus)

  • You actually need gear Way over what you can obtain by that stage, For example, Full Sardes Devil I item is not enough to be efficient in M6, and M6 gear isn't even enough to DO M6
  • Same happen with bonus stage, having full Ancient Fire Fortress gear isn't enough to deal with Bonus 1
  • This actually force the player to get carry by stronger player from their guild, or to make them grind for hours and hours lower stage to obtain better gears they can't obtain by their own means
  • This issue seam to be caused by your average NPC, Boss is Myth are actually easier to kill than other NPC, which is wrong you basically dealing with Boss-tier Health on every enemy
  • I son't know if this is a bug or voluntary design, but most people I've spoke with disliked this and find this really unbalanced

OF course, my way of seeing things is not absolute and not perfect, but I believe those 2 issue to be important and Really degrade the overall Lunia experience create frustration for players

Thanks for reading.

Good friend, iris is the most broken character in the game, she has absurd damage, soles anything pr is completely immune, tanca anything, I think she is past time to take a nerf, or remove the immune, for that it is pathetic for a DEX character to have full immune + 0delay and still be able to get hp from scratch, or should decrease her damage, but even lessening the damage would still be a broken character, since she would still be soloing anything because her immune + hp recovery allow it, asuka for example, no damage, no one plays with her because she has little damage, but she soles anything for being full immune, had to remove the 0delay 5th skill that leaves characters completely immune, remove the Immune Skills 0 delay and remove buff from hitting DEX character, something must be done about that, and I agree on the point that your DEX base should influence damage as it is very frustrating vit and int characters always haveless strength than DEX, no matter how hard you try to get more status, DEX will always be ahead of you in rank because your divine set always gives the most strength to compensate for the base that doesn't damage, that's more something that breaks competition in the game and discourages many players.

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2 hours ago, Moki said:

Hiii dear. 

I wanna understand more, are u saying that Dex doesnt have damage? (If u are talking about Asuka, i agree, because in this game she needs a Update) Did u already see Iris /Arien? ok.

(Ryan and Tia, need a update for some Myths, not all)

I dont think changes Dex classes is a solution! You would change all game DNA. Some chars need a UPDATE, NOT CHANGE CLASSES

Well, the reason Iris deal insane damage is because her skill base damage is high and that need to be nerfed.

Actually DEX char have problem with scaling on High stat.
DDM stuff give about 3 000 % Critical Damage on Vit & Int character, and with the angel pet you have arround 100% critical strike chance, which give you a straight 30 damage multiplier
Dex don't have Scaling on Critical, Which mean they don't have the 30 damage multiplier other have but have the Skill Spamming instead.

Sadly, the skill spamming is:

  1. Not realy fun since you just spam the single one ability to get perma Invulnerability and Damage Deal
  2. Deal less Damage when using your skill, but you use them 20 time more than other class

This lead to DEX Character being highly more powerful once they reach their 100% Cd reduction but Will get less and less powerful as new more powerful item will be made, since their only scaling is STR, where other char have both STR and their main stats for scaling (and their scaling is multiplicative which make the rate incredibly high)

I've seen an Iris in Chaos raid, and yes she can solo, but she just end up spamming the same skill without moving until enemies are dead... and I felt sad for him ^^'

 

Edit :

 

2 hours ago, Moki said:

About gear, of course with Ancient Fire u can do Bonus 1! U need to know how to play too, its never will be easier for new players. 

   - Go to 7-9, try to get some finger, necklace and earring IV to give u more status.

Thanks dear.

 

I'ven't tested Bonus yet so I can't say for sure so I didn't put much points about bonus but focus on myth... which is actualy pretty unbalanced, Having Clam more tanky than Seres is a bit sily

Edited by Plexus
Adding info about Bonus
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I mostly agree with you.

The dex scaling issue is currently being worked around by simply adding more str to dex gear, which kinda works, but makes it hard to compare dex stats to non-dex.

100% cdr shoudn't be possible, it is fine if some skills have no cd though.

Difficulty of stages is mostly designed around full parties with full fortified gear of the previous stage(s), but nowadays it is hard to find full parties for most, and getting services is mostly more expensive than the gear itself for myth/dx.

Edited by Etherblood
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8 minutes ago, Etherblood said:

I mostly agree with you.

The dex scaling issue is currently being worked around by simply adding more str to dex gear which kinda works but makes it hard to compare dex stats to non-dex.

100% cdr shoudn't be possible, it is fine if some skills have no cd though.

Difficulty of stages is mostly designed around full parties with full fortified gear of the previous stage(s), but nowadays it is hard to find full parties for most and getting services is mostly more expensive than the gear itself for myth/dx.

Yea sure, but I felt like something is wrong about myth, I One shot boss while the same skill only Mildly damage other enemy, which wasn't like this in my memory... or I may have idealising my memory, nostalgia make it happen ^^'

 

About Str being added to dex gear, I didn't know, but it can't be a good long-term workaround when there is a 30 multiplier on the other side (for ddm stuff, sd1 have around a 7/8 mult)...

In case dev want to make a correct additional str, I've made a graphic for Bonus damage from str

Edited by Plexus

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5 hours ago, Plexus said:
  1. The first Issue I've noticed, and It's pretty well knew among player and Dev (as I read left and right on the forums) is the Dex Scaling.
  • Actually Dexterity Increase Critical Rate, Reduce Cool-Downs and Increase Normal attack damage.
  • Most damage Increase in the game is caused by STR (with directly affect the skill Attack), well, at first sight, because the second most important damage increase in late game is the "Multiplier of Critical Strike". which, in late game can easily add a 15 or 25 damage multiplier to your already existing damage.
  • Vit and Int both have scaling for Multiplier critical strike for each of their skill, while Dex doesn't have, but the Dex don't have cooldown, however, The damage gap between Dex& other class will just be bigger and bigger since CD reduction cap at 100% (I mean, having 180% won't change anything). By the time a Int or Vit character use 1 spell and the CD end, the dex character still struggling to deal enougt damage (and I'm not even talking about ultimate skills)
  • Another issue caused by "no cooldown" is the BrainDead gameplay created for dex Character, while they were designed for fast gameplay, you just end up spamming your I-Frame AOE ability key until all enemies are dead... which is honestly not fun. even more when you have to do it for 2min on the same enemy because your damage are 25 time lower than other chars.
  • I think the best way to fix this issue is :
  • Cap CD reduction to 75-90 % prevent infinite I-Frame
  • Make Dex Scale both Magical and physical Critical damage after 3k dex, at about 1/3 of other chars (this would need testing to fine-tune the value)
  • This will both prevent the Brain-Dead-op-but-slow-gameplay of dex char and make they funnier to play overall without nerfing them to trash-tier

Its true that DEX scales pretty badly.

However, GM's already made a solution for this problem: The DDX title and the Valkyrie pet critical increase.

With those items, DEX chars can get 600% critical rate.

And 600% critical is not low to DEX simply because DEX items gives more STR than INT/VIT and they can spam all day. The INT/VIT gives more base stats and less str

Because of that, a 54kstr DEX char is equal to a 40kstr/30kbase INT/VIT char.

Its a 40kstr x 30.000% damage vs a 54k str x 6.000%. And believe me, this 14k str difference is very very expressive (i can't even say who can deal more damage).

(if you are comparing DEX chars with same str INT/VIT chars you are doing it wrong).

Also, there is Raid Title too, which is amazing for DEX chars, much better than it is for INT/VIT chars. because it increase more 50% critical - goes atleast to 650% critical (this is more 8% of DEX chars with only one item - while INT/VIT increase about 2% damage).

DEX chars can put full combat specialist too, not like INT who need final strike magical to get 100% critical.

Obviousily DEX chars per hit damage is not that high, but the total damage, the DPS, is high, because they can spam any skill everytime.

Also, DEX chars can use the AEH (Bonus 1 items) BUFF all the time (50% damage). And usually they have damage buffs with 0 delay too (+50% damage too).

I don't know if you are a old player in this server or if your chars are already full items, but look at DDM and Raid parties. I can't see any Iris or Arien having damage problems. Also, i played with one strong ryan (full ddm and weapon selenic) at DDM one time and he dealt a lot of damage too. Only was far at DPS from players with better items. Also, i played duo with one ryan (60kstr) at raids and he destroyed everything. Dealt much more damage than my dainn, and our stats is not that different.

Sure Asuka and TIA are two weak DEX char, but they are not weak because of being DEX. They are weak because some chars are more nerfed than others. Look at Kali damage (INT char). Look at Ralph (VIT char). They are very weak too!

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8 minutes ago, ArchmageDainn said:

 

Its true that DEX scales pretty badly.

However, GM's already made a solution for this problem: The DDX title and the Valkyrie pet critical increase.

With those items, DEX chars can get 600% critical rate.

And 600% critical is not low to DEX simply because DEX items gives more STR than INT/VIT and they can spam all day. The INT/VIT gives more base stats and less str

Because of that, a 54kstr DEX char is equal to a 40kstr/30kbase INT/VIT char.

Its a 40kstr x 30.000% damage vs a 54k str x 6.000%. And believe me, this 14k str difference is very very expressive (i can't even say who can deal more damage).

(if you are comparing DEX chars with same str INT/VIT chars you are doing it wrong).

Also, there is Raid Title too, which is amazing for DEX chars, much better than it is for INT/VIT chars. because it increase more 50% critical - goes atleast to 650% critical (this is more 8% of DEX chars with only one item - while INT/VIT increase about 2% damage).

DEX chars can put full combat specialist too, not like INT who need final strike magical to get 100% critical.

Obviousily DEX chars per hit damage is not that high, but the total damage, the DPS, is high, because they can spam any skill everytime.

Also, DEX chars can use the AEH (Bonus 1 items) BUFF all the time (50% damage). And usually they have damage buffs with 0 delay too (+50% damage too).

I don't know if you are a old player in this server or if your chars are already full items, but look at DDM and Raid parties. I can't see any Iris or Arien having damage problems. Also, i played with one strong ryan (full ddm and weapon selenic) at DDM one time and he dealt a lot of damage too. Only was far at DPS from players with better items. Also, i played duo with one ryan (60kstr) at raids and he destroyed everything. Dealt much more damage than my dainn, and our stats is not that different.

Sure Asuka and TIA are two weak DEX char, but they are not weak because of being DEX. They are weak because some chars are more nerfed than others. Look at Kali damage (INT char). Look at Ralph (VIT char). They are very weak too!

Honestly Didn't knew about the Critical damage Title (I'm still only at SD2 items) and that change the Dex damage dealing issue (even if that more of a work-arround than a real solution honestly) (and btw, str scaling isn't linear, 40k str is about 123 multiplier, while a 54k str is about 204 mult so with crit is :
INT/VIT : 123 * 30 = 3690 mult
DEX : 204 * 6 = 1224 Mult
INT/Dex deal about 3 time more damage, but since Dex have no cd, they can have higher damage output. That fix the Dex lacking damage for DDM ^^'

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So first of all so you can understand it a bit more. It is indeed not our code. But the biggest issue is there is no real source code leak of the game. Meaning it is almost impossible to change core mechanics as stat scaling (well we actually found some wacky access but forget that for now).

And the issue with stat scaling is well known to us which is why as others pointed out we added titles/pets to increase your crit damage multiplier on a dex character. However, as those items are received stepwise you probably run into some walls here and there as you are not supposed to get the highest possible crit damage mulitplier with lower gear. If you think about it that makes a lot of sense as you would probably dominate any int/vit char in terms of damage if you had it from the start. That problem is even worse in stage. If you balance a character to be similar damage wise to a int/vit char at high gear myth without doing so by adjusting the dex crit damage like we did, you would end up with a ridiculously easy stage gameplay on dex.

Str scaling beyond 10.001 str is a x^2 function. Before that it is linear.

Oh and about the gear you need for stages to beat them is a little bit unfortuntate. Keep in mind that cs+15 and single max grade almost double the stats of an item.

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8 minutes ago, Crash said:

So first of all so you can understand it a bit more. It is indeed not our code. But the biggest issue is there is no real source code leak of the game. Meaning it is almost impossible to change core mechanics as stat scaling (well we actually found some wacky access but forget that for now).

And the issue with stat scaling is well known to us which is why as others pointed out we added titles/pets to increase your crit damage multiplier on a dex character. However, as those items are received stepwise you probably run into some walls here and there as you are not supposed to get the highest possible crit damage mulitplier with lower gear. If you think about it that makes a lot of sense as you would probably dominate any int/vit char in terms of damage if you had it from the start. That problem is even worse in stage. If you balance a character to be similar damage wise to a int/vit char at high gear myth without doing so by adjusting the dex crit damage like we did, you would end up with a ridiculously easy stage gameplay on dex.

Str scaling beyond 10.001 str is a x^2 function. Before that it is linear.

@Crash Any news about the iris nerf and the buff of other, much weaker, characters? This full immune has to be removed, hp buff from scratch too, the character soles anything, even if they take damage from her she is a super broken char.

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9 minutes ago, Crash said:

So first of all so you can understand it a bit more. It is indeed not our code. But the biggest issue is there is no real source code leak of the game. Meaning it is almost impossible to change core mechanics as stat scaling (well we actually found some wacky access but forget that for now).

And the issue with stat scaling is well known to us which is why as others pointed out we added titles/pets to increase your crit damage multiplier on a dex character. However, as those items are received stepwise you probably run into some walls here and there as you are not supposed to get the highest possible crit damage mulitplier with lower gear. If you think about it that makes a lot of sense as you would probably dominate any int/vit char in terms of damage if you had it from the start. That problem is even worse in stage. If you balance a character to be similar damage wise to a int/vit char at high gear myth without doing so by adjusting the dex crit damage like we did, you would end up with a ridiculously easy stage gameplay on dex.

Str scaling beyond 10.001 str is a x^2 function. Before that it is linear.

 

Thank for the reply about dex ^^'

Actualy there is source lunia 2.6 source code leaked on RageZone (there is even people trying to update it to 3.1 but didn't read much about it)

I searched for about half an hours yesterday for the str formula :


					if( strength > 10000 ) 
					{
						float value = ( static_cast< float >( strength ) - 1000.0f ) / 1000.0f * 1.35f;

						return static_cast< float >( value * value * 0.03f ) + ( 0.0008f * static_cast< float >( strength ) ) + 8.28f;
					}
					else if ( strength >= 3000 ) 
					{
						float value = ( static_cast< float >( strength ) - 1000.0f ) / 500.0f;

						return static_cast< float >( value * value * 0.03f ) + ( 0.0008f * static_cast< float >( strength ) ) + 2.99f;
					}
					else 
					{
						return 1.0f + static_cast< float >( strength ) / 330.0f * GetIncreasedRateFactor( strength );
					}

                          
The "GetIncreasedRateFactor" being : 

				if ( strength > 2000 )
				{
					return 0.5f;
				}
				else if ( strength > 1500 )
				{
					return 0.4f;
				}
				else if ( strength > 1000 )
				{
					return 0.3f;
				}
				else if ( strength > 500 )
				{
					return 0.2f;
				}

				return 0.1f;

code seam wrong for lower value but is absolutely correct for str > 10k which is :

8,28 + (((STR-1000)/1000*1,35)^2*0,03)+(0,0008*STR)

I made a google doc about that :
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1G29foezkpk9rtt53QPni7YKBIOivapBI4eDBe5OcZzo/edit#gid=0

 

 

 

Edited by Plexus
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Just now, Plexus said:

 

Thank for the reply about dex ^^'

Actualy there is source lunia 2.6 source code leaked on RageZone (there is even people trying to update it to 3.1 but didn't read much about it)

I searched for about half an hours yesterday for the str formula :


					if( strength > 10000 ) 
					{
						float value = ( static_cast< float >( strength ) - 1000.0f ) / 1000.0f * 1.35f;

						return static_cast< float >( value * value * 0.03f ) + ( 0.0008f * static_cast< float >( strength ) ) + 8.28f;
					}
					else if ( strength >= 3000 ) 
					{
						float value = ( static_cast< float >( strength ) - 1000.0f ) / 500.0f;

						return static_cast< float >( value * value * 0.03f ) + ( 0.0008f * static_cast< float >( strength ) ) + 2.99f;
					}
					else 
					{
						return 1.0f + static_cast< float >( strength ) / 330.0f * GetIncreasedRateFactor( strength );
					}

                          
The "GetIncreasedRateFactor" being : 

				if ( strength > 2000 )
				{
					return 0.5f;
				}
				else if ( strength > 1500 )
				{
					return 0.4f;
				}
				else if ( strength > 1000 )
				{
					return 0.3f;
				}
				else if ( strength > 500 )
				{
					return 0.2f;
				}

				return 0.1f;

code seam a wrong for lower value but is absolutely correct for str > 10k which is :

8,28 + (((STR-1000)/1000*1,35)^2*0,03)+(0,0008*STR)

I made a google doc about that :
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1G29foezkpk9rtt53QPni7YKBIOivapBI4eDBe5OcZzo/edit#gid=0

 

 

 

It is our old version that our former dev leaked. It is not a real 2.6. It is just a patched version of an even older leak.

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23 minutes ago, Plexus said:

Critical damage Title

You can make this title at easter square. There is a fairy NPC at fountain (like Jini, but i don't remeber his name now) with the quests for title. There are 7 titles. You have to do one after other. Only the last title (800 stats) gives the critical increase.

Dex get 250% critical. Int and vit get 70%.

Edited by ArchmageDainn

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9 minutes ago, Crash said:

It is our old version that our former dev leaked. It is not a real 2.6. It is just a patched version of an even older leak.

oh, the 1.8 leak ?

Anyways thank for the information ^^

Edited by Plexus

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Dex is not too op like people think....we can't explode mobs with 1 hit or kill everything with 1 core.......like almost all int and vit can do now.

 

About Iris:most people play her because she is the only decent Dex character at moment (Arien is fine too).

Ryan,Asuka,Tia sucks a lot why not buff them instead to nerf Iris???Asuka always knock down mobs on DDM and sucks on  dmg,Ryan is a suicider and Tia...oh well she have too low dmg,and no,don't say invisibility saves because only some retard bosses fall on it and mobs continue to try attack you even invisible,idk why that.

 

Dex needs a lot of love and rework not nerfs, to avoid this situation when 2 characters monopolize all dex players because the others suck too much...why i gonna play Asuka to disrupt parties knocking down mobs,Tia literally only be a useless shuriken thrower???(turn back time is possible to hard cap the cooldown,GM's????),better to play Iris or Arien.Sad but true 

 

If Iris is too op:Nerf Dark Eir invencibility,Lime 1 transform and kill everything too.

Edited by Kirari

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1 hour ago, Kirari said:

Dex is not too op like people think....we can't explode mobs with 1 hit or kill everything with 1 core.......like almost all int and vit can do now.

 

About Iris:most people play her because she is the only decent Dex character at moment (bar Arien) Ryan,Asuka,Tia sucks a lot why not buff them instead to nerf one???Asuka always knock down mobs on DDM and sucks on  dmg,Ryan is a suicider and Tia...oh well she have too low dmg,and no,don't say invisibility saves because only some retard bosses fall on it and mobs continue to try attack you even invisible,idk why that.

Even Arien only have 3 usefull skills:Arrow,Meteors and Invisibility the rest sucks hard,but she is not too useless than the other dex

 

Dex needs a lot of love and rework not nerfs, to avoid this situation when 2 characters monopolize all dex players because the others suck too much...why i gonna play Asuka if he only gonna disturb parties,Ryan i never played DDM but i asked one friend and he said he sucks hard too and Tia literally only be a blank shuriken thrower???(turn back time is possible to hard cap the cooldown??),better to play Iris or Arien.Sad but true 

 

If Iris is too op:Nerf Dark Eir invencibility,Lime 1 transform and kill everything too.

Are u kidding me about dark eir bufss, lime? 

We are talking about damage, balancing (Some Dex’s) and not about skill! PLEASE!

 

 

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Im talking about damage,balance for DEX on 99% of the post....I don't know what i said wrong,you only read the final of this post to tell i'm out of context but ok.

 

Skills are part of balance,and i only respond that because (no mention) i read other people wan't Iris nerfed hard because dmg and immunity.

Edited by Kirari

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I don't get it.

Obviously DEX don't have burst damage. They have 0 cooldown. If you give burst damage too then they will become godlike characters. INT and VIT does have burst, but with cooldown and usually long cast. It doesn't even make sense to compare they. DEX have one type of gameplay, INT and VIT other. Anyway, Iris and Arien OutDPS any INT and VIT (except LIME) char of this game with the same stats. Sure Asuka, Ryan and Tia are weaker, but as i said, its because some chars are more nerfed than others. Its not a class thing and not only DEX chars have this problem. Look at Dacy, Kali, Ralph, Sieg and even Yuki DPS at DDM or raids (not saying they are weak, because sieg, dacy and yuki are not)!

Also, all DEX chars (yeah, even the nerfed asuka) have a great, a big, a giant advantage at RAIDS because of the imunes and spamable skills.

 If you don't like this, maybe you should not be playing with DEX chars.

4 hours ago, Kirari said:

kill everything with 1 core

DEX ults are really weak , but once again, ultimate skill is not free to use, its limited, and still DEX can spam they (making TOES easily, for example). Because of that, the lower damage is not even a issue.

And yeah, Iris is not only "decent", she is OP.

Not only between DEX chars, but ALL classes and ALL characters of the game. An Iris with 54kstr (full DDM with normal simple adds, not even max/sub, and DKD accessories)  and raid title deal the same DPS of any other char INT/VIT with 50/30 (full DDM max/sub adds and halonic accessories) with raid title and still have all those imunes, endless buff, damage buffs, burst with meteors and other stuffs. The imunes are part of Iris identity, but this high damage is just too much.

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@Plexus Nice feedback and I can't agree more regarding dex scaling and 0 cd issues. I also really like your google doc about STR scaling too. Nice job.

 

However, when it comes to Real damage, we need to take into account a lot of factors, and each factor also is influenced by many stuff: 

  1. base damage
  2. CD of skills or Speed of skills (Mana consumption, Dex effect)
  3. critical blow chance (int/vit, pet, daily potion, souls fragments, etc)
  4. critical blow rate, Multiplier of Critical Strike (Pet, title, souls fragments, dex, etc)
  5. buff (AEH buff, Manly buff, Pet buff, potion buff)
  6. Skill attribute (AOE range, penetration effects, fall down effect, extra cost/time)
  7. Stage (the performance of a char also depends on different stage/boss/mods, etc)

below are some examples that explain those factors and stuff.

  1. Dex 0cd can be fixed by increasing mana consumption, like tia's turn back time.
  2. Dex classes don't have a decent Multiplier of Critical Strike like int/vit class. However, dex classes have much higher Str, 0cd, AEH buff. Also, pet, Chao title, and soul fragments enable Dex class to have around 800% Multiplier of Critical Strike.
  3. Tia and Asuka are super weak in DDM in part because of their Skill attribute (AOE range, penetration effects, fall down). Think about a tia using the highest DPS skill Spanning Throwing Knife. Each time mods fall down and take a fucking long time to get up. Then fall down again...fuck! Same for Asuka. By contrast, Iris is much better. 
  4. also you need to think about potions, pets, and buffs. 

 

Overall,

  1. dex class is weak if we take into account (4) Multiplier of Critical Strike, (5) buff and (6) Skill attribute, as well as 85th skill. But the real situation may be different if we consider more factors.
  2. We better to focus on specific char on a specific stage.  I agree with @MokiMoki regarding char rebalanced.  
  3. Iris not only top1 immune, top1 cd skill, top 3 DPS but also the Best of the Best healer. Iris can cast you a buff like Endless potion which lasts over 40s......and 0 cd. 
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38 minutes ago, forrest said:

@Plexus Nice feedback and I can't agree more regarding dex scaling and 0 cd issues. I also really like your google doc about STR scaling too. Nice job.

 

However, when it comes to Real damage, we need to take into account a lot of factors, and each factor also is influenced by many stuff: 

  1. base damage
  2. CD of skills or Speed of skills (Mana consumption, Dex effect)
  3. critical blow chance (int/vit, pet, daily potion, souls fragments, etc)
  4. critical blow rate, Multiplier of Critical Strike (Pet, title, souls fragments, dex, etc)
  5. buff (AEH buff, Manly buff, Pet buff, potion buff)
  6. Skill attribute (AOE range, penetration effects, fall down effect, extra cost/time)
  7. Stage (the performance of a char also depends on different stage/boss/mods, etc)

below are some examples that explain those factors and stuff.

  1. Dex 0cd can be fixed by increasing mana consumption, like tia's turn back time.
  2. Dex classes don't have a decent Multiplier of Critical Strike like int/vit class. However, dex classes have much higher Str, 0cd, AEH buff. Also, pet, Chao title, and soul fragments enable Dex class to have around 800% Multiplier of Critical Strike.
  3. Tia and Asuka are super weak in DDM in part because of their Skill attribute (AOE range, penetration effects, fall down). Think about a tia using the highest DPS skill Spanning Throwing Knife. Each time mods fall down and take a fucking long time to get up. Then fall down again...fuck! Same for Asuka. By contrast, Iris is much better. 
  4. also you need to think about potions, pets, and buffs. 

 

Overall,

  1. dex class is weak if we take into account (4) Multiplier of Critical Strike, (5) buff and (6) Skill attribute, as well as 85th skill. But the real situation may be different if we consider more factors.
  2. We better to focus on specific char on a specific stage.  I agree with @MokiMoki regarding char rebalanced.  
  3. Iris not only top1 immune, top1 cd skill, top 3 DPS but also the Best of the Best healer. Iris can cast you a buff like Endless potion which lasts over 40s......and 0 cd. 

Thanks @forrest, U ARE PERFECT AND THANKS FOR THE EXPLANATION:x

And come back to game, missing u <3. Go to discord too, i'm there.

Cyaaa dear :x

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@forrest I'am aggree on the fact there is A lot of thing affecting damage, but I tried to focus on the factor that are unique to each class

However, increasing manacost fell ODD, you end up with a character dealing insane damage for a short while and then nothing much, and you'll look to die to refresh your mana poll

about the dex critical damage, yea many explained there is ddm title to overcome that, and is worked around

And thank for the post about potion and pet, pet was allready thinked in the problem (since vit/int just get +42 crit chance) but didn't think about potion ^^'


But It's still not fix the real issue with Iris being a "boring" character in the end

 

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6 hours ago, Plexus said:

Honestly Didn't knew about the Critical damage Title (I'm still only at SD2 items) and that change the Dex damage dealing issue (even if that more of a work-arround than a real solution honestly) (and btw, str scaling isn't linear, 40k str is about 123 multiplier, while a 54k str is about 204 mult so with crit is :
INT/VIT : 123 * 30 = 3690 mult
DEX : 204 * 6 = 1224 Mult
INT/Dex deal about 3 time more damage, but since Dex have no cd, they can have higher damage output. That fix the Dex lacking damage for DDM ^^'

One question, why you talk so much about DDM if you never played there? You already saw DPS with/without Iris/Arien/Ryan, asuka if you see someone she will do like 5% of all damage?(being humble I think)

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17 minutes ago, Plexus said:

@forrest I'am aggree on the fact there is A lot of thing affecting damage, but I tried to focus on the factor that are unique to each class

However, increasing manacost fell ODD, you end up with a character dealing insane damage for a short while and then nothing much, and you'll look to die to refresh your mana poll

about the dex critical damage, yea many explained there is ddm title to overcome that, and is worked around

And thank for the post about potion and pet, pet was allready thinked in the problem (since vit/int just get +42 crit chance) but didn't think about potion ^^'


But It's still not fix the real issue with Iris being a "boring" character in the end

 

I play with Iris and I like it, I don't think it is boring, I had an Arien before, I think that was boring only spamming Heavenly justice(wait like 5 seconds casting) and do it again and again, Arien is an elf and she doesn't know how to jump? lol, I really like how Iris can move easily and fast (using skills).

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@Moki Will do, my princess! Let's stay tuned.

@Plexus Yes, I read your mind. You explained STR scaling and dex issue pretty clear.  

As for mana cost, there were some posts a long time ago regarding Dex 75th skills and tia turn back time etc.

 I found one below, but it's not the original post in which many players provided some nice feedback. I think GMs already took a long time to figure out what and how they are able to do within a reasonable timeframe and limited resources. That's what they did for tia's Turn Back Time skill. 

 

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